The ultimate orb solution, at last.

SpaceOrb drivers and software discussions
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vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 03 2009, 4:58 AM

[quote]In the Control Panel applet I didn’t notice any jumping with rotation, smooth as in the game with and without precision mode. I really do like the Orb being referred to Spaceorb/Spaceball in the control panel applet![/quote]

Me too! I was leaving it as "UsbJoystick" because it's very possible to write other front-ends for other serial game devices (and it would be a bit wierd to have a racing wheel show up as "SpaceBall") but then I finally decided it would sound ridiculous to have them show up as UsbJoystick too...



Good to hear on the axis smoothness; glad that fix seems to have been worthwhile.


[quote]I installed a new copy of HL2 “spaceorb.cfg” in the game what has my chording bindings and the bindings still don’t work. Same (“jump” bound to A&C working on E, “use” bound to D working on B etc.) as the first time I tested your GainDemo...Any ides?[/quote]

Check chording! IE whether it's on or off. With chording, A&C would be button2,page2, ie button 5... abcdE; button D with chording would be button2,page1, or button 2, ie aB. So I'm betting you bound things with chording but the program you uploaded doesn't have it.

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countryatheart
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby countryatheart » March 03 2009, 22:30 PM

[quote="vputz"]Check chording! IE whether it's on or off. With chording, A&C would be button2,page2, ie button 5... abcdE; button D with chording would be button2,page1, or button 2, ie aB. So I'm betting you bound things with chording but the program you uploaded doesn't have it.[/quote]

Sorry Victor, I was thinking your GianDemo used chording bindings. After viewing the program I see there isn’t a chording command. I checked out your programming instructions on your Orbduino site and found the info I needed to edit the GainDemo so it would work with chording. Excellent work Victor!

vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 05 2009, 18:12 PM

Well, one fellow has recieved his shield already and reports that it's working fine, which is good news. Some testing reports:



1) Evidently there is a problem with version 13 of the Arduino software--a minor naming issue. But for now, use version 12 until I fix it (he reported a naming collision with function __vector_1, which must be part of the libraries).

2) Clarity issue in the docs: if you connect with the DIP switch off, the computer will still recognize the orb (you could read the docs and think that it wouldn't recognize it until the switch was on). It just won't DO anything until the switch is on.



Otherwise, looking good. Whew!

Taurondir
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby Taurondir » March 06 2009, 23:33 PM

[quote]Anyway, where do you folks think we should take this from here? I'm not even sure anyone but a select few would really be interested in spending cash to extend the lifespan of a debatable device, but it's fun that it's possible. Heck, I may fork out the $33 for the board production just to have the experience...[/quote]

Where do we go from here? Are you mad?

Just say where to send money and how much gaddamit, my orb is collecting dust ...

vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 07 2009, 4:27 AM

(grin)



Okay, the deal is:



If you're handy with a soldering iron, you can buy one of the bare first-batch boards directly from [url=http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/orbshield-p-280.html]here[/url]; there are 5 left as of this writing. Shipping is from Hong Kong so could take a week or so. You'll then need to go to your local electronics store and buy all the parts to stuff it with and follow the directions on the [url=http://orbduino.sourceforge.net]Orbduino site[/url] for assembly; it's a pretty easy build even if you haven't soldered much and have to borrow someone's soldering iron. This will get you a board fastest and cheapest. The board itself is $6.50 plus shipping, and you can price components from your local Radio Shack (or heck, you guys have digi-key available, which is awesome; I should probably put together a digi-key parts list). One catch is that you have to get the right parts (parts that will fit the board). That should easily be possible since they're all standard, but it can be a hassle figuring out which part you wanted.



If you're absolutely hopeless with a soldering iron or just can't get one, I can order you a board from the same site, buy all the components from a UK site, and either mail you a kit or assemble the thing here. This works fine too (and has the benefit that I can test it and say "well, it worked when I shipped it!"), but will be more expensive and will take considerably longer (since I have to order the board, find free time to solder it up, and then ship it to you).



Once the 5 boards at Seed are gone, I'll have to submit another batch order, which will get me 5 boards here and probably 5 more boards there. If I was 100% satisfied with the board and didn't feel the need for another prototype batch like that (I want to move the USB port and resistors a little, but exactly the same functionality) I might produce more in volume.



One problem is that there's just no way to really anticipate volume, since people are rediscovering this site in ones and twos. If I knew we would have, say, 30 orbshields for the duration, it'd be easier to do one volume order and that's that. As it is, well, we work within the system we have!

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countryatheart
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby countryatheart » March 07 2009, 10:54 AM

[quote="Taurondir"]Just say where to send money and how much gaddamit, my orb is collecting dust ...[/quote]

Taurondir,



Read Victors first post on "Page 8".

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countryatheart
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby countryatheart » March 07 2009, 12:18 PM

Victor,



I received my OrbShield kit today and it looks great! Hopefully I’ll have a chance to stuff the board tonight and test it.



I wanted to tell you that the Spaceball 4000 FLX I purchased at eBay didn’t work with your latest files. I checked the label and at the top in large letters was “Spaceball 4000 FLX” BUT in small letters mid right side it said “Model: 5000 FLX-A and center “Spaceball 5000 ser” See picture below.


[attachment=0]Spaceball.JPG[/attachment]

I contacted 3Dconnexions customer support and this is their reply:



The IBM unit you have matches the earlier Spaceball 4000 FLX models, but inside has a different technology - 5000 (A), thus the other name - 5000 FLX (A). This forum topic goes into detail on the subject of the Spaceball series devices and sorts out their sometimes confusing model numbers.

http://www.3dconnexion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=733&highlight=spaceball+compatability



The serial Spaceball 4000/5000 devices both use the same driver – V 2.8.2 and both are unsupported legacy devices. While these devices will not work with many newer applications with updated requirements ,they should still work well with your older applications.



Soooo, my Spaceball really is a 5000 FLX and will not work with Victors files. Anyone interested in purchasing a Spaceball 4000 FLX be very careful and ask the seller if there’s anything on the label that mentions 5000 FLX.



I did order another Spaceball 4000 FLX (hopefully) and it should be here next week.
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vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 07 2009, 19:40 PM

That's terrible news, Ron!



Before we give up on yours entirely, Ron, I do want to make really sure it doesn't work. There are two important changes that need to be made to use a 4000FLX, and they are not obvious (I should have mentioned earlier but I was settling the 360 stuff). I've included a "Basic4k" sketch that you can try; it works on mine. But here are differences to be aware of:



One is that in the beginning of the sketch, you have to set the orb type, and you'll want to switch polarities and axis maps for the new orb type. For example, mine says, before setup()


[code]
Logical_orb orb_buffer( SpaceBall4000 );
[/code]


and in setup(), the lines are changed:


[code]
translator.set_axis_map( Axis_map_spaceball_4k );
translator.set_polarity( Polarity_spaceball_4k );
[/code]


But, BIG difference, in the loop(), you have to send a setup string, because the 4k has a totally different protocol and won't send any ball packets until you tell it to. That means a few things. First, you have to have a check for whether the orb is initialized, and if not when it sees button 1 pressed, it sends the right string.


[code]
//before setup()
boolean has_initialized_orb=false;

...
//in loop(), but see attached sketch for where
if ( (!has_initialized_orb) && (orb_buffer.physical_buttons & 1) )
{
orb_device.safe_send_serial_P(spaceball_setup_string);
has_initialized_orb = true;
}
[/code]


It also means that once the orb is connected (you may hear the spaceball beep here), you must switch BOTH switches on the DIP switch to "ON". You must then press button 1 on the spaceball, which should send the setup string, giving you two beeps. At that point, you should have a working spaceball.



Give the attached sketch a try with the above notes (don't change it, just upload it, unplug/replug, throw both switches to ON, and press button 1). Let me know how it goes. If this sorta-5000 spaceball shares the same driver with the 4000FLX, I still have hope!



Vic
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countryatheart
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby countryatheart » March 07 2009, 23:41 PM

Thank you Victor! My new board works great with the SpaceOrb, I used it to test my Spaceball (Whatever it is) with your basic 4k file.



I uploaded your Basic 4k file and tested the Spaceball with control panel applet. It showed that is a SpaceOrb/Spaceball and the status was ok. In CP properties only axis (X&Z rotation) worked the most but not like the Orb, the others just wiggled a little (very little). All the buttons worked as they are numbered on the Spaceball. When I tried to cabibrate it the cross hair jumped from corner to corner and the raw data values only went from 512 to 396. Looks like with a little tweaking you can have the 5000 working also.



I keep forgetting to tell you about the BasicOrb file that was in your Orbduino 0.9b2 files. I uploaded it and tried it out in the control panel applet with the Orb, as soon as properties opened all the red axis bars went to the bottom (out of site) and the cross hair went to the bottom right hand corner. I tried to calibrate it but the raw data wouldn’t change from 1024. There’s something in this file the Orb/computer doesn’t like.

vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 08 2009, 4:01 AM

Ron: You may have gotten a bad version of the 0.9b2 file. I uploaded it, found a problem, fixed it, reuploaded it, and it's working now... but Sourceforge does a distributed download system so you may have accidentally gotten the first (wrong) one.



Interesting on the 5k; I'm not sure what to think yet on the ranges (mine felt pretty good). One thing which is important to know is that the spaceball series actually does some internal scaling, so if you have internal scaling and then add sensitivity curve, gain, etc you may get weird results. Still, I'm curious that the Basic4k sketch worked with mine and yours but reacted a bit differently with yours. Not sure what's up.



A more pressing problem for me right now is that the Arduino software version 13 doesn't work with the OrbShield code due to something which should be simple (a name collision with __vector_1) but I can't figure out what's going on yet. So I need to fix that first and we can tackle the spaceball problem.

vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 08 2009, 5:02 AM

Addendum: Arduino v 0013 with OrbShield:



No [i]good[/i] fix yet, but a hack if you want to use the OrbShield with Arduino v0013 (which is necessary if you have one of the newer AtMega328-based Arduinos:



Find the file WInterrupts.c (arduino-0013/hardware/cores/arduino/WInterrupts.c) and find the lines around line 81 which look like this (without comments) and add the comments so it looks like this:


[code]
/* SIGNAL(INT0_vect) { */
/* if(intFunc[EXTERNAL_INT_0]) */
/* intFunc[EXTERNAL_INT_0](); */
/* } */
[/code]


That should eliminate the collision and things should compile. "It works for me!" :? I'm trying to get a proper fix in place but we'll do this for now.

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countryatheart
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby countryatheart » March 08 2009, 20:24 PM

[quote="vputz"]Ron: You may have gotten a bad version of the 0.9b2 file. I uploaded it, found a problem, fixed it, reuploaded it, and it's working now... but Sourceforge does a distributed download system so you may have accidentally gotten the first (wrong) one.[/quote]
Thank you for the info, I downloaded fixed 0.9b2 files and the BasicOrb file works great with the Orb.


[quote="vputz"]It also means that once the orb is connected (you may hear the spaceball beep here), you must switch BOTH switches on the DIP switch to "ON". You must then press button 1 on the spaceball, which should send the setup string, giving you two beeps. At that point, you should have a working spaceball.[/quote]
I played with my Spaceball a little today, tried different ways of turning on switches before and after plugging the ball in and pressing button #1. I never could get the Spaceball to beep. Maybe this one doesn’t have a beeper. :)



I should receive another Spaceball (hopefully a 4000 FLX) this week and I’ll try it out with your Basic 4k.
Last edited by countryatheart on March 10 2009, 22:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.

vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 09 2009, 6:59 AM

Ron:



The more I think about the 5k, the more interested I become. I [i]still[/i] can't seem to find any good information about 5k protocols; I'm utterly fascinated by 3dconnexion's hostile approach to external developers (they still won't share their protocols for the 5k serial, even though I don't think it's supported any more!)



OF NOTE: Someone has evidently written a very complete (if alpha-ish) driver (joy/mouse/kbd) for their new stuff; google for "rbc9 driver"--only I can't find it and it wouldn't help with this anyway (just good to see other people trying to do similar projects).



When you say something like:


[quote]In CP properties only axis (X&Z rotation) worked the most but not like the Orb, the others just wiggled a little (very little). All the buttons worked as they are numbered on the Spaceball. When I tried to cabibrate it the cross hair jumped from corner to corner and the raw data values only went from 512 to 396. Looks like with a little tweaking you can have the 5000 working also.[/quote]

This intrigues me. It's as if the packet is similar enough to the 5000 that it's trying to decode it, but that the data is ... shifted somehow? Hm. I wonder... I may try and have you run a program to dump the serial data or something and see if we can get an idea what the packet looks like. One thing they MIGHT have done is do some sort of offset--if a serial device is just sending "0" all the time (ball in rest position) it can lose characters, which may be one reason the SpaceOrb does some weird XORing. Sounds like the button packet is the same, though. So if we can figure out the ball packet, we may have something.



Hm; I wouldn't get too excited about the idea, but it's intriguing. What surprises me is that I can't find any info on the 5k ANYWHERE... on the 3dConnexion board's I've seen a 3dConnexion employee say the protocol is "totally different" between the 4k and the 5k, and that they "don't give out protocols". The Linux driver only directly supports the 4k. Hm.



I see a guy selling some HP branded 5k's for $20 apiece on ebay; if he ships to APO boxes I may get one and see what it's saying.

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countryatheart
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby countryatheart » March 09 2009, 21:26 PM

IT BEEPS...IT BEEPS! My new (used) Spaceball beeps just like you said it would Victor! It’s an HP 4000 FLX, I gave it a workout in the CP applet and it works grrrrreat! If you can’t tell, I’m really excited about this ball working with your basic 4k file. Now for more great news, the Spaceball works in HL2! I used the same “chording spaceorb.cfg” that I used for your test. In the game I could bind all the buttons to what ever I wanted and the 4 axis worked very well...I hate to say it but the ball worked better in the game then the Orb. Sensitivity and control are outstanding!


[quote="vputz"]Hm; I wouldn't get too excited about the idea, but it's intriguing. What surprises me is that I can't find any info on the 5k ANYWHERE... on the 3dConnexion board's I've seen a 3dConnexion employee say the protocol is "totally different" between the 4k and the 5k, and that they "don't give out protocols". The Linux driver only directly supports the 4k. Hm.[/quote]
I checked http://www.ask tonight trying to find info on Spaceball 5k protocols also, a lot of usb linux stuff there but I don’t know if that would be useful info or not. I also did a search for the rbc9 driver but my modem started acting up and wouldn’t say disconnected. When I have time and my modems working better I’ll do a search for an IT message board and ask if anyone knows about Spaceball 5k protocols. There has to be someone on the internet that knows the 5k protocols.


[quote="vputz"]I see a guy selling some HP branded 5k's for $20 apiece on ebay; if he ships to APO boxes I may get one and see what it's saying.[/quote]
Victor, If you have a program the Spaceball 5k can dump the serial data into I am more then willing to do it for you. If not you don’t need to buy a Spaceball 5k, I’ll send you the Spaceball 5k I have at no charge. Consider it a donation. Just let me know if you want it.

vputz
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Re: The ultimate orb solution, at last.

Postby vputz » March 10 2009, 4:24 AM

[quote]I hate to say it but the ball worked better in the game then the Orb. Sensitivity and control are outstanding![/quote]

Heh... yep, you can see why I was pretty excited about it. And two-handed "move with orb, shoot with mouse" play works REALLY well too; it's the best of both worlds because you have the orb for fast coordinated motions and the mouse for precision sniping, with the spaceball's 12 buttons for weapon selection etc.



While you'd have to redo the HID descriptor (and I'm not sure it'd be a good idea) you could even do chording with a,b,c on the right selecting pages (16 pages!) and 1-9 on the left as buttons, giving you 144 buttons. But that would be silly.


[quote]There has to be someone on the internet that knows the 5k protocols.[/quote]

You'd think! Maybe it hit at just the right moment when the 4k was already figured out, the 5k was expensive enough no one used it, and everyone working on spaceball stuff just said "eh, not worth it". There's not even an open Linux driver for it like there is for the spaceorb and the 4k.



Let me change the orbserial program to try and output what it's seeing for a ball data packet (or any packet). If we can get that working, great, otherwise I may well ask you to borrow your 5k and see, but I'm not sure we'll be able to get it going.



Enjoy the 4k! I think it's got a lot of possibilities for gaming. Note two minor things: don't turn on chording, and use a little caution with the sensitivity table, because it's already got an internal sensitivity curve. But if it feels like it's doing what you want, don't change a thing!


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